Wrong.
Think of a render that can't be implemented using existing AVS components. Got an idea there?
We have no shortage of crazy ideas... browsing the forums will find 101 requests for random features. The problem is that nobody wants to do work on AVS to revive it... its a huge messy pile of code riddled with hacks and tricks, mostly uncommented.
r.i.p.
75 posts
The question is, if it was so hard to re-code avs.
Now it's not the right time to do it, but GC and I thought maybe in a year or something we will sit down, learn programming (gc's uncle) and then we will try to revive avs.
Next to recoding everything that exists (of course) there could/must some stuff be added.
For example some "after-effects" like a blur that can be made from the grafics card.
If I'm right things like flows are still Operations that only the cpu can do.(right?).
..And that is also the point: how could avs(or how-ever it is called then) be changed to be faster on multicore-systems.
Another thing that I think is needed is a more accurate spekrum/oscillograph. In Avs it is limited to 500 or so isn't it?
Maybe when the time is there
we could exchange know-how a little.
now the university is keeping us busy a little - first semester...
Now it's not the right time to do it, but GC and I thought maybe in a year or something we will sit down, learn programming (gc's uncle) and then we will try to revive avs.
Next to recoding everything that exists (of course) there could/must some stuff be added.
For example some "after-effects" like a blur that can be made from the grafics card.
If I'm right things like flows are still Operations that only the cpu can do.(right?).
..And that is also the point: how could avs(or how-ever it is called then) be changed to be faster on multicore-systems.
Another thing that I think is needed is a more accurate spekrum/oscillograph. In Avs it is limited to 500 or so isn't it?
Maybe when the time is there
we could exchange know-how a little.
now the university is keeping us busy a little - first semester...
Originally posted by HuRriC4nEYes. I have tried this as part of the Fridge team, it never gets further than a window, maybe with a skin and OpenGL support or something... It would be easier if I was doing it on my own, but still, I would be deluding myself to think I would finish it alone. 🙂
The question is, if it was so hard to re-code avs.
Justin wrote this pretty much on his own, but he is a f*cking awesome coder.
One tip. Do not spend to much time on design. IMO that was the largest contributing factor to the nothingness of Fridge. As good as a really thorough design is, all that time spent is wasted if you don't actually develop the thing afterwards. 🙂
Originally posted by HuRriC4nENothing personal, but most people need a good year of simple programming (VB, Java, etc...) before being exposed to the Windows API... much less building something as elaborate as AVS.
Now it's not the right time to do it, but GC and I thought maybe in a year or something we will sit down, learn programming (gc's uncle) and then we will try to revive avs.
Originally posted by HuRriC4nEPersonally there is a lot of stuff that could be lost or refactored into a more useful form. e.g. most of the renders can be made from superscopes, or triangles so imo it would be better to have them as preset code for a superscope or triangle render, than to have a seperate render.
Next to recoding everything that exists (of course) there could/must some stuff be added.
Originally posted by HuRriC4nEDon't start thinking about that yet, you do not have the knowledge to work this stuff out yet... Post-processing ("after-effects") can be implemented on graphics cards in lots of ways, but they are not unique in that respect. Everything that AVS renders could be hardware accelerated to some extent, even DM. However, you always need to use some CPU... even if it is just to pump instructions down the bus for the graphics card or ticking over waiting for the graphics card to complete something.
For example some "after-effects" like a blur that can be made from the grafics card.
If I'm right things like flows are still Operations that only the cpu can do.(right?).
Originally posted by HuRriC4nEAgain, don't think about this now. Lots of graphics problems are what is called "embarrassingly parellel" i.e. AVS is an ideal candidate for multithreading, and it wouldn't be hard. Once you have done quite a bit of code... you should be able to work this out.
..And that is also the point: how could avs(or how-ever it is called then) be changed to be faster on multicore-systems.
Originally posted by HuRriC4nEThis is how the Winamp plugin API works. Personally the accuracy of the data is not really needed for AVS... people are more likely to complain about the graphics first, and very few presets use osc/spec values for anything meaningful.
Another thing that I think is needed is a more accurate spekrum/oscillograph. In Avs it is limited to 500 or so isn't it?
Hope this helps somewhat. 🙂
the problem is not so much in avs i think, though i'd love to see it to have a future it won't get. if there was wider support for third party players, my motivation would certainly be higher. when you watch the avs submissions on deviantart, you will notice a massive drop of comments and downloads, and there it was where the scene and appreciators came together. what other sign do you need to see avs is clearly dead. what are the chances? in the unlikely case that some of the above comes true and avs gets a major update, my guess is it wouldn't change a lot as time makes people forget. the high popularity of other mediaplayers than winamp and the increasing shifts away from windows don't better the situation.
someone explain to me when fridge died in the arse aswell?
evidence:
tell me the difference please?
Sorry that i havent submitted mattfury v2 (even if it is shit...) its just avs crashes everytime i try to load a new preset on vista..
evidence:
A blog about random hacks, graphics and design, math and other ephemera.
tell me the difference please?
Sorry that i havent submitted mattfury v2 (even if it is shit...) its just avs crashes everytime i try to load a new preset on vista..
Wow ... this will take me a while to answer... 🙂
Yeah Jheriko you're right maybe that we are a little too ambitious/illusionated (sry for my language btw). But Avs needs a new start - or at least the idea of visuals moving to music. Other applications like milkdrop are far away of the capability of avs.
I don't really want to revive avs. Actually i would like to have a totally new program that is not a plugin. It should be an external programm, that can get music data via plugins in those media players. Maybe this could also work via LAN. (In a club there could be one PC for the music and one for the visuals - just to be sure that if the visuals-pc crashes there is still music playing).
Yathosho said a while ago that we're livin in "HD-age" but avs is still bound to resolutions like 300*400. With the actual AVS this won't change.
I do want to have a new visualization-programm, and I will at least try to make it - even if it's just for my own.
.....
What did you mean with design?
.....
Yeah i know it will take it's time(a lot), but GC and I are a good team with avs - why couldn't this work with programming? We're not in a hurry, and we both really really like avs - i think we have the right motivation.
For me the only way is to rebuild the whole thing from the ground.
.....
The winamp plugin works with this 500(or so) band spectrums...
That's why i want to change it.
In the last months (especially as i found out how to use the megabuf --big THANKS for the avtrans!!!) i realised, that with some spectrumanalyzing routines there could be lots of things made. A 500 band spec is good already, but if i want avs(or whatever) to realize how many different tones there are used the spec data has to be more accurate (at least in the mid-frequencies).
I more and more like to get my presets very sensitive for the music. I don't really use the "beat" anymore (when you're listening to prog-metal, or flamenco the beat-detection is reacting very bad.
Maybe ... if you're still into it we will ask you for help in a year or more.
Yeah Jheriko you're right maybe that we are a little too ambitious/illusionated (sry for my language btw). But Avs needs a new start - or at least the idea of visuals moving to music. Other applications like milkdrop are far away of the capability of avs.
I don't really want to revive avs. Actually i would like to have a totally new program that is not a plugin. It should be an external programm, that can get music data via plugins in those media players. Maybe this could also work via LAN. (In a club there could be one PC for the music and one for the visuals - just to be sure that if the visuals-pc crashes there is still music playing).
Yathosho said a while ago that we're livin in "HD-age" but avs is still bound to resolutions like 300*400. With the actual AVS this won't change.
I do want to have a new visualization-programm, and I will at least try to make it - even if it's just for my own.
.....
What did you mean with design?
.....
Yeah i know it will take it's time(a lot), but GC and I are a good team with avs - why couldn't this work with programming? We're not in a hurry, and we both really really like avs - i think we have the right motivation.
For me the only way is to rebuild the whole thing from the ground.
.....
The winamp plugin works with this 500(or so) band spectrums...
That's why i want to change it.
In the last months (especially as i found out how to use the megabuf --big THANKS for the avtrans!!!) i realised, that with some spectrumanalyzing routines there could be lots of things made. A 500 band spec is good already, but if i want avs(or whatever) to realize how many different tones there are used the spec data has to be more accurate (at least in the mid-frequencies).
I more and more like to get my presets very sensitive for the music. I don't really use the "beat" anymore (when you're listening to prog-metal, or flamenco the beat-detection is reacting very bad.
Maybe ... if you're still into it we will ask you for help in a year or more.
Don't be put off by me, but don't be too eager. Programming is very very hard and I suck at it. I've been doing it for about 17 years now (!), since I was 7-8 years old... and I still suck. Something like AVS is miles away from a first project, its the sort of thing you write after a lot of smaller programs to gain the know how. Some of the things invloved, like the scripting language or the graphics algorithsm, are specialist topics even amongst programmers. The average code monkey will go his entire career without having any idea on how to create these things.
Beware HD btw, it really underwhelms me after years of using monitors. TVs are miles behind... AVS presets can push HD res (see the <several years old I might add> HiRes pack included with J7, most of those presets are smooth running at 1080p (1920-1080) (the highest res HD standard afaik)).
But do feel free to ask me questions. I'm much better at explaining how to do things I once did than actually doing them ever again...
🙂
Beware HD btw, it really underwhelms me after years of using monitors. TVs are miles behind... AVS presets can push HD res (see the <several years old I might add> HiRes pack included with J7, most of those presets are smooth running at 1080p (1920-1080) (the highest res HD standard afaik)).
But do feel free to ask me questions. I'm much better at explaining how to do things I once did than actually doing them ever again...
🙂
hehe
I know you're right that avs is very average, but I will at least try it out.
I know you're right that avs is very average, but I will at least try it out.
<Brain dump with no particular topic...>
I notice that the proponents of the "AVS revival" are almost always wide eyed noobs who more often than not disappear entirely from the avs scene after a couple of months, so forgive my pessimism.
J is right about AVS/Programmable Visualisation being a really quite complicated project. AVS for example has a frikkin compiler in it, and there is real world research that says compilers are roughly twice as complicated as conventional programs. Combine that with some fairly hardcore graphics/dsp, and a seriously challenging interface design problem and you've got yourself a MAJOR project. If I was at a company making that piece of software I would relish it, but trying to do it for the hell of it in your spare time is something else. And as J pointed out its entirely not the sort of project you would attempt without some good programming experience. And yes, Jason is awesome.
HuRriC4nE: Most commercial VJ packages output 320 x 240, the resolution of your monitor is not representative of club screens, projectors etc... Thats not to say home users dont want good resolutions tho (and its perfectly plausible with hardware acceleration). Also, regarding the resolution of spectrum data, 512 bands is plenty enough, I challenge you to give me one example where you would need more.
I notice that the proponents of the "AVS revival" are almost always wide eyed noobs who more often than not disappear entirely from the avs scene after a couple of months, so forgive my pessimism.
J is right about AVS/Programmable Visualisation being a really quite complicated project. AVS for example has a frikkin compiler in it, and there is real world research that says compilers are roughly twice as complicated as conventional programs. Combine that with some fairly hardcore graphics/dsp, and a seriously challenging interface design problem and you've got yourself a MAJOR project. If I was at a company making that piece of software I would relish it, but trying to do it for the hell of it in your spare time is something else. And as J pointed out its entirely not the sort of project you would attempt without some good programming experience. And yes, Jason is awesome.
HuRriC4nE: Most commercial VJ packages output 320 x 240, the resolution of your monitor is not representative of club screens, projectors etc... Thats not to say home users dont want good resolutions tho (and its perfectly plausible with hardware acceleration). Also, regarding the resolution of spectrum data, 512 bands is plenty enough, I challenge you to give me one example where you would need more.
Sad...
Anyway, we'll probably be looking for one other reviewer... someone who's more active. I really don't know why they never did it before. Haven't had a proper day's rest because of this retarded quasi bologna system for ages now and even when I could find the time, it first crashed on me and then I lost my pass. Blah. It's supposed to be working now and the pass is recoverable, but I can visit only sporadically. Even if it's "dying", that probably isn't enough.
Anyway, we'll probably be looking for one other reviewer... someone who's more active. I really don't know why they never did it before. Haven't had a proper day's rest because of this retarded quasi bologna system for ages now and even when I could find the time, it first crashed on me and then I lost my pass. Blah. It's supposed to be working now and the pass is recoverable, but I can visit only sporadically. Even if it's "dying", that probably isn't enough.
Not completely dead then. 🙂
there'll always be someone out there making avs.
it's never going to die.
thousands of people still play old dos games, me included.
i have an original NES and i occasionally get out my super mario bros cassette, blow out the dust and fire it up.
even if all the regulars stop making presets, there'll still be some people out there who keep going.
and i'm determined to be one of them.
it's never going to die.
thousands of people still play old dos games, me included.
i have an original NES and i occasionally get out my super mario bros cassette, blow out the dust and fire it up.
even if all the regulars stop making presets, there'll still be some people out there who keep going.
and i'm determined to be one of them.
ok, i get it. but actually i thought it to be a bit like that. just like in avs, you can't just start off being a pro. well that was stating the obvious, but anyway - i guess once this get's started and assume we're not bored away or freaked out by the project and it get's to a slightly decent state, we might get some help further down the way.
possibly maybe...
possibly maybe...
Pak-9:i think i know who you meant... 😛
And yes, Jason is awesome
I cannot return.
My work' schedule is hard and is getting worse.
📻 Winamp forever 😁
My work' schedule is hard and is getting worse.
📻 Winamp forever 😁
Anytime I have access, I will be AVSing. (like my new word, AVS is a verb now) I've been studying coding for a few yers now, all the while thinking of an AVS overhaul, but thats a little out of my reach of yet. One can dream though.......