New Visualizer

Originally posted by kostyap
Did not you read what I said? If people like the concept then I'll add preset building interface. If not then why bother.

I appreciate that but you are going to get a completely bias view in the AVS forums because as I said we all use AVS pretty much solely for its customisation.

Originally posted by kostyap
The best way would be for you to prove your point and replicate some of the presets in AVS at high resolution with with all details.

I never said that AVS could do what your vis is capable of, I just dont think it necessarily requires an absolutely tip-top gfx card.

Originally posted by kostyap
What I am saying is that there are plenty visualizers out there and each one has it's own weaknesses and strengths and there is no need for them to replicate each other. There is enough space for everything I think. As for scalability I could throw it back to you: if I put AVS full-screen on HI-Res monitor and throw some fancy formula's it just does not work, I can assume then that it is not scalable either.

I take your point that vis' all have strong and weak points but personally I do feel that there is a sufficiently large home market out there for highly gfx intensive visualisations. Your argument that AVS isnt scalable is spurious, AVS is bordering on obselete, having not been updated to take advantage of any significant modern technologies, however up to the point it stopped being updated it scaled down very well, I believe AVS runs pretty well on any system down to about 166Mhz. Plus despite not taking advantage of modern technology, AVS still runs on essentially ANY system made in the last decade.

Originally posted by kostyap
I want my presets to look the way I made them. You probably want the same for yours.

If you want people to see your presets exactly how you made them then dismantle your entire computer system, take it over to people's houses, reassemble it and show them the vis' on your system. I know, its an extension to the ridiculous but the point is you have to compromise somewhere, and asking people to have really high end gfx cards is asking too much imo

Originally posted by PAK-9
I appreciate that but you are going to get a completely bias view in the AVS forums because as I said we all use AVS pretty much solely for its customisation.

Well it does not hurt to try😉

I never said that AVS could do what your vis is capable of, I just dont think it necessarily requires an absolutely tip-top gfx card.

"Light mode" should run on nVidia 6600GT and ATI X1650XT and those are very far from being "tip top".Besides i am in no way counting on any immediate success in consumer market. The main goal of me building it was that it complements my other products that are used all across North America in commercial environment. As for consumer market I can simply wait for a year and these cards would be just a basic. Another use of that vis is that it can also work in non real-time mode and create super high quality images with the resolutions like 10000 pixels. As soon as I finish that part I am going to start selling those.

AVS still runs on essentially ANY system made in the last decade.

That is advantage but it is also rock tied to your feet. You can also notice that while AVS hogs CPU like crazy my vis practically does not consume any CPU time. It was very important for me since when embedded in my other software there are like 20+ simultaneous independent audio-zones along with video and some other stuff.

I know, its an extension to the ridiculous but the point is you have to compromise somewhere, and asking people to have really high end gfx cards is asking too much imo

Well I am not asking them. Those who have it (and there seems to be plenty since I keep receiving reviews) can use it. Those who do not have it can certainly survive without my vis😉 Anyways in a year or two all that gfx power that I require now would be just a starting point.

Originally posted by kostyap
20+ simultaneous independent audio-zones

wow, does it also contain Super-Awesomeo(tm) and Ultra Soundycool Technology(tm)? (j/k)

Originally posted by kostyap
Anyways in a year or two all that gfx power that I require now would be just a starting point.

...unless you update your vis. Given that you have paid little attention to scalability in this version I see no reason to believe you will consider it in future versions either.

Anyway, enough discussion. As with AVS, if you enjoyed making it, thats all that matters.

Originally posted by PAK-9
wow, does it also contain Super-Awesomeo(tm) and Ultra Soundycool Technology(tm)? (j/k)

No but it has arse wiping plugin

...unless you update your vis. Given that you have paid little attention to scalability in this version I see no reason to believe you will consider it in future versions either.

Assumptions again. I have this unit deployed commercially and I am not going to abandon existing installations. It has built in scalability mechanisms so I'll be safe in the future in this regard. I just decided tot take the cards mentioned as a starting point since I can not really do what I want with the lower level cards.

Anyway, enough discussion. As with AVS, if you enjoyed making it, thats all that matters

True to an extent😉

Originally posted by kostyap
No but it has arse wiping plugin

If you don't want to be mocked, don't make up terminology as you go along...

i don't see why the discussion is running so hot here. avs is fun, but the interest in it certainly went down a lot in recent years. media-players like itunes and even wmp have overtaken winamp long ago. it's sad, but it's a fact. for me it's only natural that a good visualization software has higher hardware requirements. the competition is high and that's good. a lot of people just buy latest graphic cards to run the latest quake or unreal, a lot of people enjoy special-fx in hollywood movies. of course technology is not all, it takes creativity also. for avs there are a lot of crap presets, that look very alike. even these are quite popular within winamp users. in avs there are also some extremely skilled preset makers, that hardly get the deserved attention. because people prefer to look at hires visualizations, even if the creativity in the presets might be lower than some high-end avs. the opening of the avs source came years too late, and now nobody is interested in adding some new features (only simple options have been added so far) or even optimizing the code. hell, i don't know what i'm even talking to, i just think that both plugins talked about here have their founded legitimity to exist. would be nice to see that skilled work together, rather than just calling the others development worse. it's not easy to get together.

Its getting a bit off topic but I think the music visualisation (home) market basically doesn't exist. I remember when I first saw geiss thinking it was seriously shit hot, but even then I probably spent less than an hour in total ever sitting and watching it. Music visualisation is such a background entity that I imagine people are unwilling to pay for it, I know I certainly wouldn't.

As I have mentioned earlier in the thread the sole reason AVS has a community is the customisability of it. Milkdrop is customisable to a lesser extend and it has a proportionally smaller community. You could argue that the biggest music vis community is the demo community where the visualisations are entirely bespoke and innovation is cherished. Naturally community size is not a direct measure of how 'good' a visualisation is, but it arguably reflects popularity and mass appeal of that type of visualisation. Given those metrics, AVS fares well in comparison with other 'better', closed source visualisations.

I would go as far as to say the ONLY reason I use AVS is because I enjoy making presets. I enjoy watching other peoples presets as well, but most of the reason I enjoy looking at them is because they are often presenting something I have not seen AVS produce before, thus inspiring me further. AVS is a toy to me, and I think the home market for a dynamic visual toy that responds to music is bigger than the home visualisation market can ever be.

Originally posted by PAK-9
Its getting a bit off topic but I think the music visualisation (home) market basically doesn't exist.

Well www.soundspectrum.com seems to be doing just that for many years - selling their G-Force visualizer to home user market

It saddens me that people are actually suckers enough to buy such a breathtakingly unspectacular vis program. Whitecap from the same company is actually a superior vis because of its scripting system which was pretty good I used to think. I doubt they make much money selling visualisations like that (not that I would really know) however all that really proves to me is that there are a lot of really stupid people out there willing to pay for things that are inferior to things they can get for free.

Behold the testimonials:

"I have spent the last few hours getting acquainted with G-Force, and I must say that for the money this is a real bargain. If my math is correct, there are over 10 million different combinations as I figure, which makes this the most worthwhile investment I have ever seen for a computer. GO G-FORCE!..."

- Bernard P.

Thats only $0.000003 per combination folks!!1 Somebody buy this guy a fractal generator for christmas so he can cream his pants.

Originally posted by Yathosho
for me it's only natural that a good visualization software has higher hardware requirements.

I understand that point, but this particular piece of software is does basically nothing, and it does it slowly, AND it requires the latest hardware.

As for the discussion running hot? I'm just bitter because nobody has done very much about Fridge and I don't have the time to spend writing much for it... makes me wish I hadn't wasted so much time when I wasn't working...

Whats more is that kostyap has a bad attitude, rather than giving nice thought out replies he has snapped out irrelevant and arrogant comments without reading the post before properly (or at all) and without much correct terminology or knowledge. There has been little or no explanation or justification, mostly just rude comments.

Originally posted by PAK-9
I doubt they make much money selling visualisations like that (not that I would really know) bla bla bla

btw: if i remember correctly microsoft used g-force for the xbox, so i assume the company made good money with the license

itunes uses g-force

Originally posted by ASD5A
btw: if i remember correctly microsoft used g-force for the xbox, so i assume the company made good money with the license

XBox uses Neon vsualizer made by llamasoft. Windows Media Player and Itunes use G-Force

So the sales team at G-Force got their software bundled with WMP, the default player shipped with Windows, and iTunes, the default player shipped with macs or bundled with iPods. Two media players that by their ancillary nature have almost no requirement to be any good, and by extension (if not more so) their visualisations.

Congratulations to their sales team for some good business sense but its hardly the voice of the consumer. The customers they get to their website are almost certainly ignorant users of WMP and iTunes who are unaware that other media players exist let alone other vis's. It might as well be a captive market since the customers are trapped in a padded cell of their own stupidity.

I conceed that within the original context of the discussion, yes, G-Force has probably made lots of money for the company; but not through any particular virtues of the visualisation software.

Maybe I'm wrong about the home vis market, dunno.

Originally posted by jheriko
I'm just bitter because nobody has done very much about Fridge and I don't have the time to spend writing much for it... makes me wish I hadn't wasted so much time when I wasn't working...

So you're bitter that everyone else has the same attitude towards fridge as you? 🤪

Originally posted by PAK-9
The customers they get to their website are almost certainly ignorant users of WMP and iTunes who are unaware that other media players exist let alone other vis's.

I think that there is an attitude in here. It may be difficult to talk to people that call their potential customers ignorant. I suspect it could be the other way around. And I am pretty sure that many home users tried Winamp with Milkdrop for example. Many of my friends do use Winamp. They usually run Milkdrop though rather then AVS. When I asked them why they told that in their opinion Milkdrop looks better and has authors that produce better looking presets.

Originally posted by PAK-9
So you're bitter that everyone else has the same attitude towards fridge as you? 🤪

My attitude is slightly different. I've written *some* code for it over the past year or whatever... 😉

Originally posted by kostyap
I think that there is an attitude in here. It may be difficult to talk to people that call their potential customers ignorant...

They aren't my "potential customers", I have no interest in selling visualisations to the public; I'm just presenting my take on the market and that product in particular. If I was interested in selling visualisations it would be in the customisable visualisation vein which would be pitched at a slightly different market. I can imagine producing visualisations for the commercial sector as being fairly interesting on the other hand (which I sort of gathered you are associated with in some way).

Originally posted by kostyap
...I suspect it could be the other way around...

Sure, I'm fairly ignorant about the music visualisation market; I dont pretend to be an expert.

Originally posted by kostyap
And I am pretty sure that many home users tried Winamp with Milkdrop for example. Many of my friends do use Winamp. They usually run Milkdrop though rather then AVS. When I asked them why they told that in their opinion Milkdrop looks better and has authors that produce better looking presets.

As I stated before, most people use AVS purely for the customisation and community; Milkdrop is superior to AVS in many ways for the sitting-and-watching visualisation user. The AVS/MD comparison isnt really relevant to my comment about ignorant G-Force users though because those people have actively chosen a particular vis instead of just lumping one they got by default.

Originally posted by PAK-9
(which I sort of gathered you are associated with in some way).

That's correct

I wasn't going to get into this discussion but I just wanted to put a few things straight.

iTunes uses a really old version of G-Force as their visualiser. It has been there for many years 4+.

WMP use their own inhouse ones (at the moment anyhow) from mostly years and years ago. Andy/Soundspectrum/G-Force did not do anything for WMP player. (Although they did do something for Media Centre.)
Besides G-Force would not meet their strict technical requirements for visualziation products within WMP (or the XBOX360 for that matter)

Originally posted by PAK-9
Sure, I'm fairly ignorant about the music visualisation market; I dont pretend to be an expert.

Don't worry about it most people are not and least you don't pretend to be an expert. 😉

Originally posted by Rovastar
I wasn't going to get into this discussion

Here comes guru. Hi Rova. How it's going? Looking forward for new presets from you for R4 or whatever else you use.

I downloaded it aswell, I think this a very boring program without any usable options, at least if you're going to develop something, give it more than preset changes that actually change..

Originally posted by MaTTFURY
I downloaded it aswell, I think this a very boring program without any usable options, at least if you're going to develop something, give it more than preset changes that actually change..

If it is boring because you can not write presets yourself it is fixable if enough people show interest. If you find that the concept of how images are created is boring then we just have different ideas and there is nothing I can do about it. You have plenty of alternatives

I think plenty of people are showing interest *hint*...

Originally posted by MaTTFURY
I think plenty of people are showing interest *hint*...

Really? I must've missed something or misinterpreted. Did you personally find it boring because it does not offer preset writing interface or because you just simply did not like the concept? In any way I am contemplating release that will let people write presets. It'll take me 1 to 3 month depending on how much of my time my other commitments will take away.

Boring if its not user interfacable, i.e. you can't do anything with it and I'm happy that you've taken an interest to make something useful of your knowledgable programming skills.