iJenAPE. Be one with AVS.

SYFi

1st August 2003 22:37 UTC

iJenAPE. Be one with AVS.
Hello fellow AVS developers! We would really like you guys and gals to check out iJenAPE. It's based on our motion tracking technology and allows you to interact with the AVS.
Check it out, the full download is only ~180k. We are sure you will think this is as cool as we do. Feel free to play and mail us what you think. We would like to see some more presets based on this APE! :up:
Oh, you need a WebCam. Enjoy!

Download the APE here

mikm

1st August 2003 23:43 UTC

shit...don't have a webcam. While this must be good coding, it would limit it to viewers with a webacam.

Pixelcraft

2nd August 2003 00:06 UTC

That looks cool, I'm not sure what it does, and I don't have a webcam, but....yeah.

dirkdeftly

2nd August 2003 09:24 UTC

me neither, and this doesn't have any use to the majority of people who don't have webcams...nevertheless it looks cool; postify it on deviantart :)

Zevensoft

2nd August 2003 10:39 UTC

How do you get it working with Winamp 2.9x? All it had was a winamp3 install, and it kept crashing avs 2.5.1

[Ishan]

2nd August 2003 10:41 UTC

:(I dont have a webcam yet, but i will have one soon(about 2-3 weeks) when i get my new computer.

SYFi

2nd August 2003 12:02 UTC

Originally posted by Zevensoft
How do you get it working with Winamp 2.9x? All it had was a winamp3 install, and it kept crashing avs 2.5.1

It is not designed to be run under Winamp 2.x. Winamp3 is a requirement of the APE. Sorry.
I know some of you still prefer Winamp 2 and don't have Winamp3 installed. But, if you want to experience the coolness, I'm afraid you'll have to download Winamp3.

Mahem911

2nd August 2003 12:04 UTC

Hi Zevensoft

Unfortunatly our APE can only run on winamp3, its a problem that we know about, its something to do with directx, i dont know if we can get round the problem yet. we are working on it.

have you tryed it on winamp3 yet?

Regards
Mahem911

"How do you get it working with Winamp 2.9x? All it had was a winamp3 install, and it kept crashing avs 2.5.1"

SYFi

2nd August 2003 12:09 UTC

I'm going to submit it to deviantart. Thanks for the suggestion.

anubis2003

2nd August 2003 12:26 UTC

Wish I had a webcam.

SYFi

2nd August 2003 13:12 UTC

For those of you missing WebCams we are working on a streaming video so you can see what you are missing. ;)

Yathosho

2nd August 2003 14:43 UTC

since winamp 3 is discontinued in favor of winamp 2 (which will later become winamp 5), you should consider changing your release policy.

[Ishan]

2nd August 2003 18:08 UTC

No i'm not going to download WA3(i hate it!well everybody does:rolleyes: ), tho it would be if you'll could make it to work it on WA2.x it would be nice.

hungryskull

2nd August 2003 19:35 UTC

It crashed winamp.

SYFi

2nd August 2003 19:57 UTC

I does indeed crash Winamp 2. This is why the release is only for Winamp3. To be quite honest we are unsure why it crashes v2.x.
We may be able to return to this in a few weeks. I would also like to return to this after the release of the commerical iJen libaries. iJen will allow you to use our motion detection in other software.
The iJenAPE is really just a cool toy.
So those who won't use Winamp3 will have to wait a few weeks at least. Sorry.

Hungryskull: Not sure it you using Winamp 2 or Winamp3. If you are using winamp3 bear the following in mind: (Copied from readme)

2. Setup
---------------
You should have software to configure your camera settings manually. If not, go and look for VidCap32.exe (it's by Microsoft), it works.
OK, so at the moment we need RGB24 (24 bit depth) feed from the camera and Jen is set to run on a 320x240 feed for this particular APE (later versions will be much more configurable:) )

1. 24 bit depth feed.
2. 320x240 resolution.

You will need DirectX 9.0a or greater.
Windows WDM drivers for your camera.
Windows XP

SYFi

4th August 2003 09:37 UTC

Originally posted by m²k
shit...don't have a webcam. While this must be good coding, it would limit it to viewers with a webacam.

Ah true, true ...
However, with the release of the library, here will be a c++ base class called I_Source which defines the interface that Jen uses to talk to a 'feed source' (cam, avi, mpeg etc). The problem is we have not had the time yet top develop this any further and only have minimal web cam support at the moment >:/

If you've got any media reading code or anything, we'd love to hear from you :)

chilm.

SYFi

4th August 2003 09:47 UTC

Originally posted by Ishan_Rocky
No i'm not going to download WA3(i hate it!well everybody does:rolleyes: ), tho it would be if you'll could make it to work it on WA2.x it would be nice.

Hi,
We use Winamp3 and it allowed us to implement iJen quicker than Winamp2 (as in it worked straight away, instead of crashing straight away;). However, after this initial feedback getting iJenAPE to work in Winamp 2.x is out highest priority ... as soon as we get back to developing the APE :)

We will let you y'all know when it's done :)

chilm.

[Ishan]

4th August 2003 11:02 UTC

that's nice we'll sure like to see it in WA2.x!

btw, try using the edit button. :)

SYFi

4th August 2003 14:33 UTC

Originally posted by Ishan_Rocky
that's nice we'll sure like to see it in WA2.x!

btw, try using the edit button. :)

Heh, we have a new version out now from www.syfi.co.uk.
There are two downloads; one for Winamp3 and one for Winamp 2.9.x!
enjoy.

We are thinking of making "AVS_I_Source", which is essentially our motion detection engine "Jen" using the layers under it as it's input, meaning that everyone can run it!!! :) That'll be in iJenAPE v2.0 ...

chilm.
Also see here

Nic01

4th August 2003 21:05 UTC

Try having a "playbox" for mouse detection ;)
Or perhaps a small window for keyboard detection... who knows :P

SYFi

5th August 2003 09:07 UTC

Originally posted by Nic01
Try having a "playbox" for mouse detection ;)
Or perhaps a small window for keyboard detection... who knows :P

Hi Nic01 :)
I think we understand what you mean, but it doesn't fit in with what Jen does, unless we've misunderstood you ... ?

However, we can write an iJenAPE Game, using say, on-beat pulsing blobs of light that can only be 'hit' when they visible :) or something along those lines ...

Any ideas would be welcome (ahem, NullSoft crew!;)

chilm.

Deamon

5th August 2003 17:36 UTC

sweeet :)

S-uper_T-oast

5th August 2003 21:24 UTC

I don't think you will get much help from the Nullsoft people, they basically have abandoned AVS, you would be much better off asking people on the fourms for help with things. I think your APE should be awesome, but since I don't have a webcam I'm out of luck for now, I'll be waiting for this I_source thing though.

SYFi

6th August 2003 09:06 UTC

Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
I don't think you will get much help from the Nullsoft people, they basically have abandoned AVS, you would be much better off asking people on the fourms for help with things. I think your APE should be awesome, but since I don't have a webcam I'm out of luck for now, I'll be waiting for this I_source thing though.

Hi S-uper_T-oast,
Cheers for the advice :)

Here is the order that we are doing this (with regards to the APE and our library release):

1. Two demos for the website (should be done today - 6th August)
2. The library and it's documentation, for Friday 8th.
3. A ScreenSaver game, next week.
4. Back to the APE!!! :) and the I_Source thinggy ;)
... if all goes well ...

So, hopefully we'll have iJenAPE v2.0 in a couple of weeks ...

chilm.

Deamon

6th August 2003 09:27 UTC

just hurry ;) (j/k, you take your time to get all bugs etc. out)

S-uper_T-oast

6th August 2003 19:23 UTC

I'd really like to see this thing used for games, I know I can find ways to waste time with them.

anubis2003

6th August 2003 19:58 UTC

Many webcams come with games - my friend's has a basketball game.

Limpet

7th August 2003 02:29 UTC

You could reinvent that game that came out a long time ago for the nintendo (or was it the snes?). It was basicaly an interactive 3d pong type game. Dont know if this is possible with your software though.

UnConeD

7th August 2003 04:16 UTC

What I meant with the passthrough thingy was simply to have an option to skip the motion detection altogether and just use it as a webcam plug-in. It shouldn't be too hard to implement and could be very useful. AFAIK there isn't a good one (there was one a while ago, but I heard it kept crashing).

SYFi

7th August 2003 09:12 UTC

Originally posted by S-uper_T-oast
I'd really like to see this thing used for games, I know I can find ways to waste time with them.

dude,
We are releasing two demos today(hopefully) using our engine. Now, bear in mind we are not games developers, and as such the demo's could look a lot better :hang:

However, they 'do exactly what it says on the tin'. A simple fly swatter demo - 50 flies buzzing around - hit 'em to kill 'em, and 'Air Drums' demo, 4 parts of a drum kit, hit one to make the sound.

More will be coming as they get made :)
And screen savers and things etc.

chilm.

Deamon

7th August 2003 09:40 UTC

dude, sweet (again) :)

SYFi

7th August 2003 09:58 UTC

Originally posted by UnConeD
What I meant with the passthrough thingy was simply to have an option to skip the motion detection altogether and just use it as a webcam plug-in. It shouldn't be too hard to implement and could be very useful. AFAIK there isn't a good one (there was one a while ago, but I heard it kept crashing).

hey man,
I'm sorry but we're not looking to do anything like that at the moment, in a nut shell, because we are working on the core maths engine all the time, and we don't have the time or need to create a better feed source for what we do right now, and thus no time to impement in the APE. Sorry (again)

We found the APE that put the feed on in the AVS, and it worked, but we couldn't see a use for it? Why'd you think it would be so useful?

We are going to give you the option of turning the camera off, so our engine process the motion going on underneath it in the AVS :)
So then everyone can use iJenAPE :D

That is now a confirmed feature for v2.0 :cool:

If anyone out there has any other ideas or features etc, we'd love to hear them, and if we think we can put them in and they fit the 'philosophy' of what we are trying to do here, we'll add it to the list.

chilm.

SYFi

7th August 2003 10:01 UTC

Originally posted by Limpet
You could reinvent that game that came out a long time ago for the nintendo (or was it the snes?). It was basicaly an interactive 3d pong type game. Dont know if this is possible with your software though.

Hi Limpet,
That game sounds interesting, can you give us anymore of an idea what it was? :) or how it played / looked etc.

I like the idea (personally).
chilm.

jheriko

7th August 2003 11:55 UTC

Originally posted by SYFi
We found the APE that put the feed on in the AVS, and it worked, but we couldn't see a use for it? Why'd you think it would be so useful?

What is so useful about the original design? To be honest I can't see much potential in this APE... at least not yet, the framerate is really poor on lower spec systems and the motion detection is also really poor (at least with my cam). What 'uses' does motion detection have in AVS anyway? Its really just something which may or may not be visually appealing depending on the individual, just like <insert any rendering APE here>.

I think that the coolest things about having an unprocessed feed are:

1.) It should be easy to add since your ape already gets the camera feed to detect the motion.
2.) If you were VJ'ing at a party you could blend in camera shots of the crowd which seems like something that would increase the usefulness of AVS in the area of live VJ'ing.
3.) You could use the image to feed avs... e.g. feeding fractal DM's, generating a texture, applying distortion to the image like a water bump for instance.
4.) You could make your own motion detection in AVS using this live feed hence rendering the original function (at least partly) redundant.

I think you should consider adding this feature, it will make your APE into something a lot more useful with minimal effort.

SYFi

7th August 2003 12:24 UTC

Originally posted by jheriko
What is so useful about the original design? To be honest I can't see much potential in this APE... at least not yet, the framerate is really poor on lower spec systems and the motion detection is also really poor (at least with my cam). What 'uses' does motion detection have in AVS anyway? Its really just something which may or may not be visually appealing depending on the individual, just like <insert any rendering APE here>.

I think that the coolest things about having an unprocessed feed are:

1.) It should be easy to add since your ape already gets the camera feed to detect the motion.
2.) If you were VJ'ing at a party you could blend in camera shots of the crowd which seems like something that would increase the usefulness of AVS in the area of live VJ'ing.
3.) You could use the image to feed avs... e.g. feeding fractal DM's, generating a texture, applying distortion to the image like a water bump for instance.
4.) You could make your own motion detection in AVS using this live feed hence rendering the original function (at least partly) redundant.

I think you should consider adding this feature, it will make your APE into something a lot more useful with minimal effort.

Hi jheriko,
I think we've come across in the wrong way about what we are doing with this APE. It was an idea we came up with a couple of weeks ago, and took 2 weeks to get to state it's in now (mainly due to windows interface coding). This is not our 'main' thing by any stretch. It is a mini-project to show partly how easy it is to integrate this generic motion detection engine inside any application. If you go look at our website, under the section where you can get the APE there is a section on 'Future Projects'. THAT's what we're up to :)

The configuration of the engine inside the APE has been set at some predefined values, which we believed would be suitable for most medium to high end systems. Many of the complex visualisations we've looked at run very slowly on low-end machines too.

The camera source is always going to be a problem, we know this, and the core engine can only perform as well as the quality of the data you provide it with. We're looking at high-spec composite cameras, and the like, for developing security systems etc.

The library is in beta development stages still too, and is currently to the greater part un-optimised, and still runs (in our opinion) rather well on mid to high spec machines :)

iJenAPE is just a cool toy, just like any other visualisation :)
It's just another way of looking at the world (man).

chilm.

UnConeD

7th August 2003 13:05 UTC

Hm? I don't get it. You're doing complicated maths on the feed, yet you can't provide a simple option that simply copies the original captured image into the AVS framebuffer?

The use for a simple, live feed is endless. And if you don't realize that, you should download some of the more technical preset packs...

SYFi

7th August 2003 13:23 UTC

Originally posted by UnConeD
Hm? I don't get it. You're doing complicated maths on the feed, yet you can't provide a simple option that simply copies the original captured image into the AVS framebuffer?

The use for a simple, live feed is endless. And if you don't realize that, you should download some of the more technical preset packs...

... from previous post
"... we're not looking to do anything like that at the moment, in a nut shell, because we are working on the core maths engine all the time, and we don't have the time or need to create a better feed source for what we do right now, and thus no time to impement in the APE ..."

chilm.

jheriko

7th August 2003 13:33 UTC

I've seen your website, you seem to have unrealistic expectations for this technology.. especially since there are existing technologies (i.e. laser grids, radar, sonar) which are much better suited to many of these tasks due to their accuracy and reliability.

The only real benefit of using motion detection for security, 3d object identification etc is the cost, a webcam is far cheaper than lasers. The bluescreen++ seems like a practical idea though but you should give careful thought to the application of this technology to security systems and control systems, after all we live in a world of constant motion which will interfere with such systems. In case you didn't know there already exist affordable fingerprint scanners... they are very reliable in my experience.

Just out of curiosity what kind of method are you using to determine movements?

SYFi

7th August 2003 14:24 UTC

Originally posted by jheriko
I've seen your website, you seem to have unrealistic expectations for this technology.. especially since there are existing technologies (i.e. laser grids, radar, sonar) which are much better suited to many of these tasks due to their accuracy and reliability.

The only real benefit of using motion detection for security, 3d object identification etc is the cost, a webcam is far cheaper than lasers. The bluescreen++ seems like a practical idea though but you should give careful thought to the application of this technology to security systems and control systems, after all we live in a world of constant motion which will interfere with such systems. In case you didn't know there already exist affordable fingerprint scanners... they are very reliable in my experience.

Just out of curiosity what kind of method are you using to determine movements?

Hi jheriko,
We understand that what we purpose as concepts on our site may not be 'the best' way of solving some of the issues, but that they are 'do able'; plain and simple. More than anything we are trying to get across the sheer versatility of what we will ultimately be able to provide.

The existing technologies you mention are all great, and the points you bring up about cost are true, but you cannot say that we "have unrealistic expectations for this technology" as you have only seen the APE and do not really know what is 'going on' here with regards to our motion tech r&d ;)

The technology and the library we are going to release, gives any developer the ability to incorporate motion tracking software into their application. The whole thing is under heavy development, and this is only a beta release (and hence, will have limited features to begin with), but will provide the basic building blocks, as it were.

As for our motion detection methods ... seriously? ;)

chilm.

jheriko

7th August 2003 15:00 UTC

Originally posted by SYFi

The existing technologies you mention are all great, and the points you bring up about cost are true, but you cannot say that we "have unrealistic expectations for this technology" as you have only seen the APE and do not really know what is 'going on' here with regards to our motion tech r&d ;)

I might not understand the motion tech r&d but I do understand the basic laws of physics and how the world generally is... things are always moving so you will need a way to filter out small movements, since your motion tech only analyses an image (no mass, volume etc data) it will have to filter out small objects, small movements or a combination of both in some clever way. The system will never be perfect (in the strictest mathematical sense, like nothing is ever going to be perfectly 1 metre in length) which means that for control systems there will be some (even if rare) glitches when used in the outside world, as for security systems the whole idea is useful for catching idiots and animals but real criminals are smart and they will learn how to move slowly or trick your system into thinking that no movement has occured.. perhaps by slowly filling a room with mist, there are doubtless many ways that a motion tech security system could be rendered useless. Sometimes specific knowledge or experience can blind you when it comes to basic logical deduction, though the same is true in reverse that simple principles may not lead to the truth... I just find it highly unlikely that a feasible and useful motion detection system can be created with the limited processing power we currently have available.

Originally posted by SYFi
As for our motion detection methods ... seriously? ;)

I was really just wondering if it was anything much more than pixelold-pixelnew>tolerance and what sort of advanced maths is being used to filter your motion data (however you get it).

Don't take offense from my questioning... I just can't except anything without first picking at every flaw i can find. I think its a mathematician thing... it certainly is a useful trait for finding holes in proofs.

SYFi

7th August 2003 15:40 UTC

Originally posted by jheriko
"... since your motion tech only analyses an image (no mass, volume etc data) it will have to filter out small objects, small movements or a combination of both in some clever way ..."
"... as for security systems the whole idea is useful for catching idiots and animals but real criminals are smart and they will learn how to move slowly or trick your system into thinking that no movement has occured.. perhaps by slowly filling a room with mist, there are doubtless many ways that a motion tech security system could be rendered useless ..."
"... I was really just wondering if it was anything much more than pixelold-pixelnew>tolerance and what sort of advanced maths is being used to filter your motion data (however you get it) ..."

I'm sorry jheriko, but you're bouncing happily over the boundaries of what I can and can't openly discuss :) What I can say is that with regards to the securty system, we don't see it as a replacement, fully automated system (yet;)), but more as an aid to existing security personnel. One guard could watch many more monitors, only reacting to motion notification, but as a back up in all cases.
We're not developing AI here, well, not for a while anyways ;) and we believe that all the ideas we put forward on our site are feasible, and if nothing else an aid to existing systems :)

Originally posted by jheriko
Don't take offense from my questioning... I just can't except anything without first picking at every flaw i can find. I think its a mathematician thing... it certainly is a useful trait for finding holes in proofs.

Heh, your posts made me smile ;) no offence taken. I like the way your brain works ...

chilm.

Nanakiwurkz

21st November 2006 22:35 UTC

i found a error on your site.
in the archives there is a error involving the orginal Ijen ape download link.

MaTTFURY

22nd November 2006 07:17 UTC

Why are you reviving 3-year-old threads!!!

Warrior of the Light

22nd November 2006 07:30 UTC

yea.. just make a new one and link to this thread if really needed