Voting your own work + AVS responsiveness

UnConeD

6th December 2002 12:31 UTC

Voting your own work + AVS responsiveness
Right. I've just read another 0 star comment on Whacko AVS VI, complaining that my presets suck once more. How nice. On top of that the writer is complaining that I voted on my own work. More detailed:

That it is: Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity. Your punishment in Hell will be: You'll be broken on the wheel.

Aside from the fact that the author should get off his high horse and recognize that his stupid threats don't mean anything to a person who is not a christian fundamentalist, he's also irritatingly forgetting one thing: this is the only way I can reply to the people who crack down my work. There's no email link or any other way to contact a visitor who reviews, except to post a review yourself (which could easily be disabled by the admins if it was so bad).

If someone says my AVS presets suck, I'd like to defend myself (provided they use actual arguments), which is what I did. I didn't praise my work into the heavens, I simply pointed out some facts. Except of course the fact that I gave it 5 stars, because you're not allowed to give no rating, and because that's what the staff review gave me. The writer immediately concludes that I "can't stand critics".

What do you think about this? I think voting for yourself is overly enhanced by the fact that it says "blablabla gave it [5 stars]" which indeed makes it look like you're kissing your own ass. But then again, you must be dumb to ignore the whole slab of text below it that's validating those 5 stars.

Now onto another AVS-related issue... I'm tired of people complaining about reponsiveness in my presets when 90% of all AVS presets don't respond more than 'Use The Force' (all that is reponsive is the ship's rotation and shooting. Surprised?).
Seriously, take a look at the AVS components and how they respond to different things: moving particle is pretty random aside from radius; the 3D effect from dot fountain is usually so mangled by movements that you just see a bunch of swirly dots; etc. And as far as the oscilloscope or spectrum drawing scopes go, usually the signal itself is warped beyond recognition too. AVS is about things moving around, using the music as a generator for mostly pseudo-random movements.

I just don't see why people complain about this with my presets. Presets with just onbeat response have been around for ages, yet people seem to have the illusion that before complicated 3D presets, every pixel AVS calculated was 100% pure music. How come similar packs like Pickin Dim or El-vis' History (yes, it contains just as many unresponsive presets) get nothing but rave reviews, and I get stuck with assholes saying it's not true to AVS? Perhaps the answer is indeed "no style or visual appeal", but I'd figure I'd get nothing but 0 stars then.

VisualAgnosia

6th December 2002 13:25 UTC

If I findem I'll knockem flat..
Who said such a thing !!!!!!!

Hey UnConed If someone is havin a bitch because they have problems with their own life and think that someone who's proud of the work they do, needs a bit of a come down, it's probably because their father played the finger game with them too much as a kid. Or they're just upset because your heaps better and talented than they are.. I suppose he didn't mention any thing about the SIN of Jelousy.. hmmm I hope that makes you think.

Its kinda like ..say, this real bastard guy who cant paint for shit and every one in the village thinks he's an arrogant prick walks into the celistine chaple and says, That michealangelo guys gonna go to hell for thinking he's so good, I reckon my five year old could scrall on the walls with crayon better than that, I give it 0 stars. But in the end people just forget that person "what's his name" and remember the real ARTIST...

Dont worry the people who praise it really mean it so listen to them because there's always some prick out there who wants to dis you. Specialy cause there's no reply adress .. wussy:mad: ..

Alot like rattaplans signature..

There's three types of people in this world:
There's us
and then there's bastards.

Props UnConeD

:igor:VizaG:igor:

p.s. what comes after twentytwelve..

UnConeD

6th December 2002 15:17 UTC

You mean december 2012, the end of the mayan calendar?

Clashman

6th December 2002 15:23 UTC

Those dirty rats!
[James_Cagney]You dirty rats....you insulted UnconeD...you dirty rats![/James_Cagney]

I have to agree with VisAg - the presets that you've done are tryly cookass! I mean...that "Use the Force" one, the only thing that could make it better is if it looked like you were in the cockpit of the ship proper! Containment and Circuit City...those are nice too, but "Use the Force" - that (if you'll pardon my lapse into Gamer Mode) pwnz!

[envious]Dammit, I wish I could do shit like that...[/envious]

Rovastar

6th December 2002 16:21 UTC

It is a shame that you get seemingly singled out for abuse of this sort.

I too would like to enter dialog with these people (person) to see what they ae on about. I enjoy constructive criticism and discussion.

I would like to see teh same reviewer and author give a no star rating also.

As for the sound responsive stuff you are one of the few / first to take this seriously in AVS. I see that as a welcome addition. It can only improve it. I wonderif he is refering to the AVS vs seperate plug-ins issue. IN the scope of AVS you do preety well I feel. Anyway it probably is not a serious criticm just another reason to have a go at the neo-nazi hellbound virus writer that you are. :)

UnConeD

6th December 2002 16:44 UTC

Heheh cool... hadn't thought of the fact that I can now add 'hellbound' to my list of BadThings(tm). Neo-nazi hellbound virus-writer who goes by the name of Gord.

Seriously though, what is the deal about voting for your own things? I'd never do it to get my rating up, I do it to give the reviewer an answer to some of their questions and to reply to their wild claims. I think the fact that the only trace you leave is a name encourages people to insult and generally be downrating.
Rovastar, I know you don't have much influence either (no-one around here seems to), but could you please push this issue if you have a chance? A simple system to allow sending people email through a webform (so the email address is not revealed to sender) would do wonders. Some people don't even realize they can't be contacted, I've seen tons of "it doesn't seem to work, all I get is ************, please mail me!" and similar questions.

dirkdeftly

6th December 2002 17:30 UTC

Y'know what? I seriously think that the AVS review staff should be able to delete or disable certain reviews or votes. There's too much shit like this - self-voting so you can get your pack to the top for more downloads, jealous down-voting because you want your pack above somebody elses, and stupid things like 'I can't give props to someone who's that much of an asshole about a lousy half a star.' Also, the user should be able to disable his own vote, like on DA. Lastly, no more than 1 vote per user should be allowed. If WA is so anal about submitting shit, why are we so loose about the actual reviews?

jheriko

6th December 2002 18:38 UTC

Re: Voting your own work + AVS responsiveness

That it is: Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity. Your punishment in Hell will be: You'll be broken on the wheel.

Any one who believes in god that much has my instant disrespect for abandoning logic and sense and for being a mindless follower. I'm not going to knock religion too much here, since I know that a lot of people have beliefs and, no matter how wrong they obviously are to me, they are entitled to them, but to prattle on like this deserves a good arse kicking.

EnDurA

6th December 2002 23:06 UTC

Art is not about how good or bad a painting looks (how could you even judge that seeing as everyone has a different perspective?). its about expressing yourself. so why should you care what everyone thinks as long as ur happy with it.:)

Clashman

7th December 2002 06:00 UTC

Originally posted by EnDurA
Art is not about how good or bad a painting looks (how could you even judge that seeing as everyone has a different perspective?). its about expressing yourself. so why should you care what everyone thinks as long as ur happy with it.:)

Or as MGM put it:

Ars gratia artis - Art for art's sake.

Which is basically what AVS is - art. True, a lot of the more technical stuff (setting the code up to process information and render the graphics on-screen) are done by software processes (designed by Nullsoft's programmers) which interface with the drivers for the various computers we use (done by the makers of the parts for said computers), but those are the tools the artists (in this case, the preset makers) are given. What we do with them - and whether we share the art we create with others - is up to us.

Sure, some people may call our work poo-licious - that's their opinion, and they're entitled to share it, AS LONG AS THEY'RE POLITE ABOUT IT.

When it gets rude (as did the one jerk who threatened Unconed with "divine retribution", so to speak, for his [mocking_voice]"o'erweening pride"[/mocking_voice]), then I have problems.

The Winamp reviewers who looked over my presets said that they were good for a beginner in the AVS world (which is what I am), but they weren't rude about it - and I'll admit that next to Unconed, my stuff looks like redigested llama poo. If the reviewers had said what I just did, I bet they wouldn't be reviewers much longer! ;)

But I'm happy with my work - I think it's coming along nicely, although I stil have much to learn, and I'm happy with it. The reviewers who checked out my packs merely confirmed what I was thinking myself when I compared my presets to some of those done by people who've been AVSing for longer than I've been on the Internet! (Okay, so I exaggerated there - perhaps. It's still true!) So as long as people are polite when criticizing my work, I'll be happy - after all, I do my best to do the same when I comment on other people's work.

So I'd agree - have the user reviews moderated the way the forums are, and anyone who's rude and bashes the work they're reviewing should have their posts edited or removed, as well as having the rating they gave rendered null and void, and there should DEFINITELY be an option (for the component author at least) to abstain from rating his own work while still letting him defend it.

dirkdeftly

7th December 2002 19:59 UTC

Obviously, you two have not spent hours on end trying to make your presets perfect, nor are you serious about your AVSing.

Clashman

7th December 2002 20:46 UTC

Atero, Atero, Atero...

Originally posted by Atero
Obviously, you two have not spent hours on end trying to make your presets perfect, nor are you serious about your AVSing.

It's not the amount of time spent, it's the outcome of the time spent. And no AVS routine will be perfect - after all, we're only human...except perhaps you, you seem kind of alien to me! ;)

The point of my post is this:

No matter what we do or how much time we spend tweaking this, fixing that, depixellating the other thing, adding alpha blending to smooth things out, removing the blur that makes things less defined, or whatever you do when working on a preset, there will always be a*holes who will say it still looks like crap, no matter what we do, and bigger a*holes who will threaten us with divine retribution/death/etc for defending our work.

Much as the one jerk who criticized Unconed did when Unconed defended the work he did on Whacko AVS VI, in response to some other idiot's much ruder version of the statement that the presets didn't react to the music as much as he would have preferred them to - and voted it no stars at the same time! I believe that the exact wording of this fundamentalist Christian scheiBekopf's comment is in the post Unconed made to start this thread - something to do with being broken on a wheel in Hell, I think it was.

To paraphrase P. T. Barnum (I think...):

You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

dirkdeftly

8th December 2002 02:22 UTC

My point is, once you've put all your heart and soul into a pack and you submit it, when it only gets 9 out of 10, it's pretty depressing...

jheriko

8th December 2002 21:18 UTC

Yes. I hate the fact that even my last pack only got 4.5 out of 5. Its not my decision though and I guess that my own presets look better to me because I make them how *I* like them.

VisualAgnosia

9th December 2002 06:49 UTC

Do you really think you know what ART is?
Is god a critic? [godsvoice] " Hmmm for this sorry little man I'll give 2 stars" [/godsvoice]

Clashman says art is the product, Atero say art is the whole lot, yeh yeh yeh whaeva. Do I think I know what Art is ... hell yeh I know better than anyone. I am God's gift to art, I'm so full of sinfull pride that the broken wheel in which I will be destined for will be my greatest work ever. Smear my soul all over the afterlife like I am a dark green oil paint.

Opinion:

I have the opinion that the opinions that make other peoples opinion's are purely solopsistic even from my own solopsism.... Art is not microcosmotic enough...damn it!! Get inside your own world and find the capital of it, go to it's leader and smack him in the face and tell him Damn it, there's not enough perfection here, "make it perfect!" perfect like a smack in the face...

What in the world is Perfection, what do you compare it too. I took a perfect dump just before I flushed it, not much effort went into that I can tell you.

Atero you are totaly right good Art takes time and effort, Human's cant make anything itentionaly awsome unless the intended skill is honed. Clashman is right if you stumble onto something in the dark trip over it smack your head on the ground and someone wants to buy the bloodstain on the ground off you then thats art to... Sheeesh even this post is Art.... Dont bother Arguing because I wont listen.

********** " Art is instalation " **********

Please dont assume to know what art is before you know this (the above formentioned comment).... Because making an assumption is making an ASS out of ME and UMPTION..

AND I WONT STAND FOR IT

Tha Vis:igor:Bang

wow my OS must be art because I've installed it a thousand times..

Tuggummi

9th December 2002 08:10 UTC

Hmm...

I was just thinking...

Maybe we should have a "don't submit avs at wa.com" month (or 1-3 months since the waiting list is long and slow...)

If all of the major avs artists would do this, maybe it would make a difference. Maybe it would awaken the avs developers, maybe it would make the whiners think a bit before posting reviews, maybe it wouldn't make any difference and avs would be hated even more...

Maybe...

I don't know is it a good idea, im only suggesting it. Now i want your opinion.

btw. I think we could still post presets at places like devart, deskmod etc. because they don't have any idiotic people who bitch about everything without a reason.

Clashman

10th December 2002 18:44 UTC

[yoda]Post a poll about it, I will![/yoda]

mikm

14th December 2002 01:52 UTC

a few thoughts...
When the author is logged in and viewing his/her own submission. he/she should be able to easily add comments in the review section and under stars another option would be "Comment", which would not affect star ratings and be at the top. The author should also have the power to submit pointless reviews that complain that their computer crashed (unless, the plugin causes it) or that they hate the author and have it removed, so that reviewers/moderators do not have to waste time filtering through all the reviews that occur.

Da16x

14th December 2002 11:58 UTC

i Agree With TUG
- i Really Think It Would Be Intresting 2 See

What Would Happen When People Won't Submit, i Maybe

Not Some Major AVSer But Still.

jheriko

14th December 2002 16:51 UTC

It wouldn't work. Winamp.com may be the biggest source for AVS presets and the most used source but about 95% of AVS on winamp.com is pap made by people who have nothing to do with the community. I don't think anyone would care if AVS stopped for a couple of months. I think that nullsoft have completely forgotten the existence of AVS... perhaps even the existance of winamp.

dirkdeftly

14th December 2002 23:48 UTC

Naw. Really? :rolleyes:

I seriously think some of the better programmers around here, like Jheriko, CFP, and UnConeD - maybe even Ryan Geiss - should get together and ponder over making an AVS2.5-compatible vismaker with at least some of the shit we've been asking for on the wishlist. (I think I already mentioned this in one of UnConeD's posts.) Either that or have all of us flood Justin's e-mail weedling him to get off his ass and finish his job :p
Of course, if you were going to make something AVS2.5 compatible you'd have to get the source from Justin... :weird:

Zevensoft

15th December 2002 01:38 UTC

You would only need the source to make sure it looks the same. It's easy to make program which can load/save the presets, but to get it work *just right* would be a lot harder. Hell I'd make it but all I know is VB and it's too slow.

Here, this text file detailing some parts of the AVS format should help get you started (You need to Save Target As... and open it in Notepad).

jheriko

15th December 2002 02:54 UTC

Why would a stand-alone vis editor be useful? You wouldn't be able to see what you are creating... for that you *would* need the AVS source.

Why would VB be slow for making a vis maker? All that it would need to do is store a load of stuff into variables from text boxes and then write that stuff to the file in the correct format. The slowness of VB wouldn't really factor much into that since you aren't going to be doing anything which is very processor intensive at all.

Clashman

15th December 2002 23:55 UTC

Hmm. A standalone visualization editor with output support...might work.

Perhaps if it used Winamp AVS as its output plugin....not necessary for creating it, but if you want to see it as its created...

Then again, if we could get the AVS source...

I'd do it myself, but...seeing as I know nothing except simple QBasic and some hbatch file programming, I wouldn't be able to do it. Count on me for moral support, though! :p

Of course, an email campaign might work - that is, if Justin doesn't delete it as spam. I would, if I constantly got email from different addresses saying the same basic thing. Unless...we did a petition on the forums and sent a link to said topic to Justin and anyone else in the NSDN involvede with programming AVS, it might work.

Thoughts? Names? Suggestions?

C'mon people, we need to work as a group if anything's going to change!

dirkdeftly

16th December 2002 06:49 UTC

And you'd need the AVS source to be able to read AVS files. Duh.

Clashman

16th December 2002 13:36 UTC

Ah, but when did I ever say the presets from the standalone had to be in NAVSP (Nullsoft AVS Preset) format? If it were created by us, using our own coding techniques, we wouldn't need to use the AVS source. :p

Like a cross between say, Milkdrop (from what I understand, you can create presets with Milkdrop - I could be wrong) and AVS - the AVS style Renders and such, but a different file-save format than AVS.

See?

dirkdeftly

16th December 2002 18:01 UTC

Except that was my original point: It'd be nice if we, the users, could continue AVS's development on our own, so we could still read/edit old AVS files.

Once again: DUH.

Clinical

16th December 2002 22:58 UTC

Originally posted by Atero
My point is, once you've put all your heart and soul into a pack and you submit it, when it only gets 9 out of 10, it's pretty depressing...

Ok, maybe I just have really low standards, but if my pack got 9/10, I'd be pretty happy with that. I'd be happy with 7/10, even. And don't assume that because I said that, I don't put hours of work into my presets, or that I'm not serious about it, because I do and I am. Maybe it's just because I'm new at this, and my opinions are worthless. :p

Anyway, I completely agree that there should be some way for the author of a pack to respond to comments without having to rate their own pack. That would really be handy... *pokes the Nullsoft webmasters with a stick*

Zevensoft

17th December 2002 03:45 UTC

Atero, you don't need the source to read AVS files, I reverse engineered it and it's not difficult at all. If you follow the guidelines in the text document, you can create an editor easily. The only problem is rendering.

Zevensoft

17th December 2002 03:49 UTC

Also, I've noticed with the .avs format you can embed things, which would get dismissed by AVS, like watermarking and such.