BryanCDonaldson

23rd August 2002 19:17 UTC

AVS difficulty in general. (SORRY ABOUT LAST ONE)
:(Most of you guys seem to have a mind-boggling grip on math and programming. I just wanted to know, how do I get started and how long did it take you guys to learn all this?

I have been trying to get superscopes down for almost a year now, and I can barely make a decent Movement, much less a dynamic movement. All the tutorials I have seen have either been REALLY technical or just poorly worded and impossible for a guy like me to understand.

I am in college, and I am a very bright person, but I think this stuff is just over my head. Any pointers?:igor:

Lastly, I have attached EVERY SINGLE AVS I have ever made or edited greatly from another idea. (Since it won't let me upload my SFX file, unzip it to C:\program files\winamp\plugins\avs\) If you have any questions or comments, email me. BryanCDonaldson@aol.com

Thanks!
Bryan

UnConeD

23rd August 2002 19:57 UTC

Instead of posting a new thread with your forgotten attachment, you could've just posted a reply ;).

By the way I can't speak for others, but my the complexity of my movements is relative. Mathematically, doing 3D in AVS isn't any different from OpenGL or Direct3D. The only issue is that AVS is a very limited environment, so it's a lot harder to do some effects.

The fact that AVS's editor isn't very advanced for a code editor makes everything look more complex than it really is by the way.

If you're in college, you should have a nice foundation in math. I think your problem is that you've never really done much with it. Have you had analytical geometry? Then raytracing shouldn't be too hard to pick up.

I think something like AVS is great for showing what applied math can really do.

BryanCDonaldson

23rd August 2002 20:03 UTC

Umm...
So what DO you suggest? I have no knowledge of programming anything. I don't feel like taking a class on it right yet either. Is there anything that I can do to actually make mine somewhat impressive? Or will I always be second notch?:(

BTW, UnConeD, You are the man.

jheriko

24th August 2002 00:30 UTC

I've been programming for about ten years now and i'm half way through a maths degree. I don't think it has been too useful for avs though, especially programming since avs is nothing like c++ code or qbasic and uses some quite strange methods of doing things. As for the maths i can say that i haven't put anything that i learned after the age of 14 into practice with avs. The most complex thing i've ever needed is the 3d rotation matrix.

If you just keep practising and try to figure it out for yourself then you will get a much deeper and full understanding of how it all works. Also remember that you don't have to use heavily complex maths to make pretty presets, the best presets by UnConeD and EL-VIS tend to have superscopes and dms that are overflowing with code (which is either from using raytracing or from optimizations, i assume). You can often create the exact same effects using about 1/10 of the code in a more intuitive way, it just wont run as fast or maybe a little glitchy.

Hope thats useful to you in some way.

Jaheckelsafar

24th August 2002 06:11 UTC

:o Oops, didn't see this thread. Replied in the other one. :o

That's certainly a whole whack of presets. Which display your best coding skills?

BryanCDonaldson

24th August 2002 07:00 UTC

My faves
The ones that best display my abilities are the ones I didn't make!

However, if you want a list of favorites -
First pack: None

Second: No lack of color

Third: First Superscope Effect (sucks, I didn't even make the scope)

Fourth: Gone Too Far

Fifth: Fonky Duts (Dumb name, but think about it, you'll get it)

SiXTH: None are mine

Se7eNTH: Kaleidorama, Pit of Horror, Fireflies

EiGTH: No Use Crying Over It (REALLY cool), Catalyst(s), Greeneville, SC

NiNTH: Down the Gullet (You will love this one), Unpalatable (Trippy)

TeNTH: Your Brain on Hormones, Navajo Dreams, UFO, Dare You Call It Gay

E1eVeNTH: Hell's Disco (Or Within The Clouds, same AVS, different color), Fanfare Pending

That should just about do it. Those are my favorites...not many of em have tough effects, if any. I know they aren't crap, but they run well and respond to music. So say what you will :)

Tell me what you think of those.

Jaheckelsafar

24th August 2002 13:10 UTC

My fave of those was 'Dare You Call it Gay', with 'UFO' comming in second. But that's not quite what I asked. Which ones show your best coding skill. Is there a superscope or a DM you are particulaly proud of?

UnConeD

24th August 2002 14:35 UTC

Oh by the way, if you're going to make those water+movement presets with a certain colour, you've got to add a render/clear for the first frame. Otherwise, the previous preset's colours are used.

And please, include all necessary support files (asc's, svp's, pictures, ...)

Anyway my overall impression is that most of them are waaaaay too busy and flashy. My basic philosophy on AVS is that a preset should have an original look and feel. It's easy to make it do yet another swirl-of-colours, but making unique pieces is a lot harder. And them I'm not just talking about technical presets... some of my favourite AVS presets are very simple ones.

You seem to stick to the same basic effects all the time, and I think it shows. I've just flipped through all your sets and to be honest no single preset gave me a "wow" effect.

BryanCDonaldson

24th August 2002 14:58 UTC

Grrr...
The reason I didn't answer your question Jaheck is because I haven't done any superscopes or DMs. And UnConeD, that's why I'm here. I already said I can't even imagine myself doing a dynamic movement at this point.

Oh, and flashy is just the way I work. I figure if I'm gonna make one, it's gonna give you an epileptic seizure or I've failed ;)

UnConeD

24th August 2002 15:05 UTC

Well then your style is not my style... ;). A movement+water preset will look awesome to an AVS newbie, but if you consider how easy it is to make, its impressiveness drops fast.

AVS has a lot of possibilities, and I love presets that uncover new things.

BryanCDonaldson

24th August 2002 15:28 UTC

Well
Every journey starts with one small step.

I was coming here for a step in the right direction, not JUST criticism.

I have TRIED working with them (DM, SS, DDM) and I just can't get them to work. I know it's because of my syntax and poor understanding of how it works, but I can't help that I can only do the simplest stuff.

jheriko

24th August 2002 18:52 UTC

heres how i started with dm, i made a render picture then underneath i made a dynamic movement with d=d/(1+y) in the per point box turn on wrap and hey presto - a plane effect. (Make sure clear every frame is on) the d=d/(1+y) was something that my friend used in a preset, if you add or change this basic line you can make all kinds of things (i still use it for tons of stuff).

If you then take simple concepts (like increasing time variable in per frame and varaibles that switch from 1 to -1 on beat) and insert them into the dm you can make it dynamic. There are other effects you can do with dm but if you don't try and figure them out for yourself from what you already know then you won't understand them, it's important to understand how everything works in order to have power over things like dm and ssc. You just have to experiment and be patient...

BryanCDonaldson

24th August 2002 19:38 UTC

...
THat's a neat little movement, but can you give me any pointers as to how to make it do other things? I mean, I don't want specifics....but playing around with it just makes it jumbled up liek the other ones.

What are the ABSOLUTE NECESSITIES I need to know when it comes to Dynamic Movements/SSs?

I have Movements donw pretty well...but I have no clue where to even begin with Dynamics, maybe someone with AIM or AOL can just tell me through IMing me. Anyone have it?

jheriko

25th August 2002 05:34 UTC

heres my advice on ssc

x=2*i-1;
y=0;

that should be all you need, thats it on ssc from me.

dm is the pretty much the same as movement except that you have the ability to use 'static' type variables and you can change things per frame or set initial values etc... instead of just per pixel, this makes it dynamic, you can make your movement change what it does. do for instance if you want to make a simple scrolling dm you can turn on rect co-ords and wrap and set x=x+dx; in pixel and set dx=dx+0.01; in frame then x is increased by dx every frame (ie whatever is drawn into the dm will scroll across, try it with a picture). you can fiddle with how t is added to x and the way that x is changed to make things different, try things like x=x+sin(dx); or x=2*x;or x=x*(x+sin(dx)); if you don't use rectangular co-ords then you are using polar co-ords and you can set things like r=r+t;in pixel, with t=t+0.02; in frame. to change things in dm its often easy to do it by using an incrementing or cycling variable like t above or sin(dx) which cycles.

Another cool way of making your movement dynamic is an onbeat change, my favorite is to initialise say q=1; then on beat make q=-q; then per frame make dx=dx+(q*0.05); then do something with dx like above. then on beat dx will change between going up and going down.

often you wont want to change how dx is added to x that much, for instance if you made x=x+dx*dx; then your movement will get faster and faster and will never stop getting faster unless you handle that in someway.

another thing, look at the expression help, its really useful. you seriously will have to figure most of it out for yourself tho', really it isn't that hard, all you have to do is think logically through your code to see what it does. Remember that we can't just put the knowledge into your brain for you we can only try to make it easier for you to find it for yourself. My specific example was simply meant to be toyed around with so you could see what does work and what doesn't. For instance, the first thing i tryed with that code was changing it to d=d/(1+y*y); which was pretty cool, then came things like d=d/(2+sin(t)+sin(2*t)*x-cos(3*t)*y); (with t=t+0.01 in frame) just play with things like that add expressions and just sort of mix it up a bit.

Final recommendation is to download tons of avs packs, loads and loads (hopefully including mine :P), sometimes you can find a dm or ssc that you will understand whether it is because it is simple or because you can understand how it works straight away, whatever...

hope it helps

[p.s. imho aim sucks donkey balls]

BryanCDonaldson

25th August 2002 07:32 UTC

AAAH!!!
I swear, no matter how much you tell me, it still doesn't seem to work for me!!! :cry: I can't get it!

I mean, I plug it in and all, but the more I edit the DM, the more it looks like a regular, everyday movement that is "too busy and flashy," but I have no idea what to do!

Are there any POINTERS instead of examples? I've tried to do the searching thru dynamics that others made and it just confuses me more...this is where they start bringing in dx and dy and ix and all these other 10 letter variables that they NEED and I don't get. Maybe it just wasn't meant to be :(

Well, Winamp rocks, and I'm gonna keep trying to make DMs, thanks for all your help. If you think you can help me any more, please feel free to do so. I just don't think I'm the kind of college guy that can learn all this. I mean, my IQ is 163 and I still don't get the stuff.

UnConeD

25th August 2002 11:06 UTC

The faq contains a few links to instructional threads...

In any case, you can't expect us to write entire books on how to make AVSes. Everyone here does it in their own spare time and writing guides takes a lot of time and is not easy.

(Oh by the way and I seriously doubt your IQ is 163 :weird:. The average person has an IQ of a 100 (by definition), so 160 would place you along the likes of Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein. No offense, but I'm sure they'd be able to pick up AVS in a day :P)

BryanCDonaldson

25th August 2002 11:30 UTC

Well then I just give up. I've seen about 10 guides, a few tutorials, and had you two just straight up tellin me stuff, and I still don't get it...I guess it wasn't meant to be.

BTW, there are numerous IQ tests, most of them give you different results. I am pretty sure the number was 163. :-\ But I dunno.

Jaheckelsafar

25th August 2002 14:47 UTC

How about this.

- X and y are the values that decide where the point is in the AVS window.
- V is the value for the current point (-1 to 1).
- I is the position of each point on the scope (0 to 1).
- The coordinates in the AVS window go from -1 to 1 (everything else is still there, but outside the window).

With the above in mind work this out. What do you think you should you get?
x = (2*i) -1 ;
y = v ;

jheriko

25th August 2002 18:00 UTC

Originally posted by UnConeD
The faq contains a few links to instructional threads...

In any case, you can't expect us to write entire books on how to make AVSes. Everyone here does it in their own spare time and writing guides takes a lot of time and is not easy.

(Oh by the way and I seriously doubt your IQ is 163 :weird:. The average person has an IQ of a 100 (by definition), so 160 would place you along the likes of Stephen Hawking and Albert Einstein. No offense, but I'm sure they'd be able to pick up AVS in a day :P)

BryanCDonaldson

25th August 2002 19:54 UTC

But I can't make presets :(:(:(

dirkdeftly

26th August 2002 06:39 UTC

Re: Re... (sorry about the first one)
Another perfect test subject for AVS Primer, unless you've already seen it, in which I'm deeply disappointed in myself :(

Otherwise go to http://atero.deviantart.com/gallery , there should be a link there for it. :)